“Hi, everyone,
and welcome to our panel discussion

on breaking the glass ceiling
and why diversity in leadership

is very important
not only in tech organizations

but in every organization.

My name is Gazelle.

I work in recruiting,
and I’m also a diversity

and inclusion partner at idealo.

Today, we have four fabulous guests here.

Before I introduce them
and introduce the topic

a little bit more, I want to invite you
to send us your questions in the chat.

You’ll find a Q&A section
on the top of your screen.

It might also be called F&A.

That’s fine.

It’s the same thing.

It’s in German.

Make sure you send your questions there.

You can either address either
of the participants or ask all of us,

or you can also share your experience
with breaking the glass ceiling,

for instance, in the chat.

It will be great
if this is as interactive as possible.

Also, if you have any technical issues,
you can always write us in the chat.

We have a support team
there for you as well.

Now, without further ado,
let’s introduce our panelists,

alphabetically, I’d say.

Let’s start with Dinah.

Hi, Dinah. Dinah Keshishian.

She is an Agile Coach
for International at idealo.

You discovered the potential
of team development

in organizational design
when you were part of a leadership team.

You have some managerial experience
and a managerial perspective.

However, now, you’re mostly working
with other leaders as an Agile coach

to support them in their daily work.

You also say that leadership teams
that are not diverse

miss out on a lot of potentials.

Right. Hi everyone.

Thanks for being here.


Then we have Fabio.

Fabio, you started at idealo 2017
as the country manager for Italy,

and you are
now the Chief International Officer.

That’s quite a change.

You are passionate
about creating clear visions

for future possibilities
based on data and facts.

It’s always good to have.

For you, inclusion also means
looking at each person individually

and looking at every individual’s
strengths and potentials.

I’m so happy to hear about that.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

Then there’s Keeran Gunnoo.

Hi. I’m happy to have you here.


You have worked
across multiple industries,

specializing in employer branding.

It’s not only that.

Currently, you’re working
with our sister company, AVIV,

on the fourth floor.


You’re not always here,
but this is where they’re located.

You are the group director of talent
acquisition, employer brand,

diversity and inclusion.

That’s a lot.

You say that, as a leader,
you like to listen.

I’m glad we get to listen to you today.

Thank you very much.

Then we have Nathali.

Hi, Nathali.

Nathali Basten.

You did a traineeship
at the European Union Agency

for Fundamental Rights.

Before then,
you started as a product owner.

That was also quite a change.

Then, now, you are Head of Product
in one of our core functions at idealo,

also in product and technology.

Your leadership style.

Nathali, I work with you.

I would describe it as your appreciation
of clarity, openness, and transparency.

I can say that this is true,
and I appreciate this about you.

Thank you for being here also.

Thank you also. Nice.

Now, as I said today, we will talk
about breaking the glass ceiling.

The term “”glass ceiling”” is something
that I want to define for us here.

It is when we are metaphorically speaking
about some invisible barrier,

basically, that prevents
certain individuals

from being promoted
in an industry or company.

Those barriers are almost
entirely unwritten.

There are, for instance,
implicit biases at the workplace,

or there are barriers for people
that prevent them from going further,

and nobody understands
why except perhaps themselves.

They are invisible, but they’re there.

This is why
they’re called “”glass ceilings””.

Keeran, how does breaking
the glass ceiling resonate with you?

Also, another question goes
as follows: “”Can you

break it more than once also?””

Is there only one glass ceiling?

Are there several glass ceilings?

How do you look at it?

All right. I think that when it comes
to breaking the glass ceiling,

it’s understood.

It’s implicitly understood
when you’re looking at it

in the corporate sense.

When you’re talking
about the glass ceiling,

it seems that you have something in reach.

We quite strive to touch it.

It’s quite unfortunate
to see that in your sights.

When we look at organizations,
you can see that it’s understood,

but it’s so entrenched
in hierarchical point of view

that people
can see where those biases exist.

It stops and prevents them
from opportunities

to progress in their career
despite their qualifications.

Some of those biases could include
not being promoted

because there are commonalities
between the manager and the other person.

It could be an interest
in a particular sport.

That means that they’re not actually seen
for what they’re worth.

Then, when you look at it
in terms of the landscape of today

and the labor market,
a lot of people recognize

that with the power of sites
like LinkedIn,

they can see an online CV
and how people progress.

If I gave myself as an example,
when you peruse my LinkedIn profile,

you can see that I’ve moved strategically
throughout my career

in different industries.

That’s because I do come
from a marginalized community.

I’m also very mindful
that the only way I can progress

in my career
is by seeking opportunities elsewhere.

A lot more people are aware of that too,
to be able to stand the opportunity

to be seen
and heard invisible in the marketplace.


You can in theory when you look at
how often people move

and change their career,
break the glass ceiling several times.

It’s interesting you also pointed
that out already

This is also something I try
to include in the definition,

that it’s sometimes or often people
from marginalized communities,

perhaps, or from non-dominant communities

seek that glass ceiling
or face this glass ceiling.

Would you say this is
like a leadership thing,

or let’s say you need
to train your leaders

and your leadership teams on this?

Also, is this something for the Diversity
and Inclusion department?

Does it even have anything to do
with diversity and inclusion?

Absolutely, it does.

For example, I’ve got
a quite sizable team at AVIV.

I’m also autistic.

It’s very rare for somebody with autism
to have the opportunity to lead

or to be trusted to lead a team.

What I consciously do is lead
with compassion and empathy,

and I listen to my team.

I also explain some of the barriers I find
and how I learn, adapt,

and digest information, because I know
that they are going to be leaders one day,

and I’d like to equip them with the skills
of leading compassionately

and in an unbiased way
so that other people that work under them

in the future have opportunities
like this.

That’s perfect.

Also, I believe that
thinking about your own team

and what you can do is something
that I would want you to talk

about later in the discussion.

Also, I remember, Dinah,
when we were speaking

before this panel discussion
and I was mentioning the glass ceiling,

you also said, “”Yes, I have a perspective
on this as well

when it comes to working with teams.””

What was your thought
when you heard the term “”glass ceiling””?

Right. First of all,
the term resonates with me

because it’s usually
or mostly associated with women at work.

That’s what mostly happens
when you hear the term “”glass ceiling.””

It happened to me
as well in companies before.

I have worked once
with a male-only management team.

I was the only person who,
along with my highly appreciated work

and all my tasks, was given the rest
of the additional

operational tasks on top.

I was never given a seat at the table.

I constantly kept busier.

I was hitting the glass ceiling.

The example Keeran mentioned before
when it comes to women

is the classic example.

A knowledgeable, highly skilled woman
is not being promoted

because, for example, in her company,
men are viewed

as more suitable leaders.

This is where it resonates with me
and has in the past as well.

However, as you also said before,
the term is associated

with minority groups.

It goes beyond gender and ethnic topics.

Another example would be a very highly
experienced male

software developer who is 52 years old
and is not seen as someone

who would fit in a startup, for example,
because the people there think

the workforce must be millennials.

He wouldn’t fit.

That’s another way
where he hits the glass ceiling

because of these hidden traditions,
old traditions, biases,

and beliefs about what we believe
the perfect candidate looks like.

Now, when it comes to my work with teams,
there’s lots I can do.

I, as an Agile coach, am a lateral leader.

Part of my job
would be to facilitate workshops.

I have a big lever there:
the way I facilitate the workshops,

because not only do I do it
with the leaders in my company currently,

but by doing the workshops with them,
they learn about the methods I use.

For example, after a workshop,
they come and want to copy it.

I help them out with templates, et cetera.

It’s more like I’m spreading knowledge
with methods and ways

to offer a safe space in my workshops.

I have a big lever there
for diversity and inclusion.

I don’t know
if we will touch on this topic later.

There are ways that,
as a facilitator, I can give a safe space

to a diverse team. Right?

Absolutely. I mean, you mentioned
two topics that I heard

that we will be talking about later on.

One is a matter of tools, if you will,
but it is also a matter of representation,

or who you see in your company,
and that you see somebody you can look up

to who helps
you grow and supports you in growing.

Before we move into that
and dive deeper into that,

I have the first poll
for everybody watching coming in.

This is the question of: Have you hit
the glass ceiling yourselves before?

I’ll give you a moment
before the poll comes up.

Please answer whether it is yes,
you personally felt

the glass ceiling before.

Yes, you saw somebody
in your surroundings,

or no, you’ve never hit the glass ceiling
so far. We’re very curious

to see what the audience says.

Until then, Nathali,
maybe about you personally,

how was your experience becoming a leader?

After you did that traineeship,
did you know you wanted to be a leader?

No, not at all.

In my previous job, I was a product owner
at another company,

and I never felt
I would be a manager in my life.

I never had the ambitions,
but I also got the feedback.

As you said, like in a male environment,
I never saw myself in this position,

although maybe
I was always interested in it.

When I came to idealo, I was interested
in the theory of leading and leadership.

I did some seminars
and also saw different people

in these positions,
which made me also consider it.

I think that’s when I tried to do it.

I applied for the job, and I got the trust
where I felt safe

experiencing this for myself.

That was my path,
which was not planned by me

at the beginning of my career.

Yes, but also the matter of trust here,
as a core value.

That’s something you need to have somebody
to sees it in you and give you the trust,

maybe who supports
you breaking the ceiling, if you will.


This brings us to the answers.

It’s perfect timing.

Most people have hit the glass ceiling
or have seen somebody

else hit the glass ceiling.

That’s almost 90 percent.

That’s a lot.

We have discussed certain topics.

We’ve talked very briefly
about tools and representation.

Before we come to that, I want to touch
on something that you addressed,

but we also addressed
that in the beginning:

that diversity and inclusion themselves
are super important

for every healthy workplace.

I remember from my work experience
that when I started ten years ago,

in 2018, there was this McKinsey study,
which probably most of us have read.

Most of the audience
has probably heard about it.

It’s one of the most successful studies
from back then,

when it was all about, yes, diversity
and inclusion are important.

The more diverse and inclusive you are,
the higher the productivity

of your company,
the more innovative you are,

and you also have
90 percent higher retention.

People will stay if you work for us,
if the surrounding

is diverse and inclusive.

After that, there are many studies
that show us this.

That brings me to you, Fabio.

Being Chief International Officer
means operating

five international websites.

That means five nationalities,
at least represented here in Berlin,

all sitting in one place
or in one digital room.

I was wondering,
how do you feel about the correlation

between productivity and diversity?

How do you experience
your work environment currently?

Yes, I’m normally not the manager
who looks at the diversity report

every week, but I did it for the panel.

Internationally, we have around 160 people
coming from 29 different countries.

It’s more than five, as you guessed.

We have 62 percent women employees.

The leaders are 50:50.

We also have a wide range of ages,
from 21 to 65.

That means different seniority
and different experience.

That’s only showing
that I have a department with diversity.

It means that I have a diverse department.

Not really. It’s probably like this
because, as you said,

diversity brings us more diversity.

Coming to your question, what is important
for you is this diversity,

and one metric that I also look
for to understand

if the department, the team,
or the company is diverse

and has this diversity
mentality, is the level of innovation

or the level of improvement
that there is in a specific department

where, by innovation,
I don’t mean creating a new product

every day or a new feature.

Innovation can also be a changed process
or at least

challenging the status quo.

You need to create an environment
that is inclusive,

where all these differences,
these different perspective,

these different point of views,
can be used

if you want to use this word,
because that will bring

discussion as a conflict,
but also bring a hierarchy to your company

and make you also successful
and increase the productivity.

For example, as Dinah mentioned,
one has to give this format,

give these tools,
and have someone like Dinah

who focuses on that
to create this inclusive environment

that then lets
you use all the diversity that you have.

To answer your question,
it’s not enough to hire diversely

if you don’t have an environment
where you can use the diversity.

I would like to jump on that.

You use the term “”environment,””
and that’s quite interesting

because when you say at a company,
“”We want to go for more diversity,””

it doesn’t mean much other
than we’re inviting more minorities

to work at our company and work with us.

However, what happens once they arrive?

That’s when it actually starts.

How would you treat them?

What would you have to offer them?

Do you have an environment?

Do you have safe spaces
where they can actually be themselves?

That’s exactly what Fabio elaborated on.

I think this is where
the term “”diversity”” also appears

in politics, on LinkedIn,
or in social media.

It’s still a buzzword
because you can understand

so much with this term.

At the same time, it doesn’t mean much.

It comes with the action that’s behind it
as well as how the company is engaging

in offering more to their employees
instead of only inviting minorities

to join them.

People see that. Right?


It makes organizations.

You’ve got instant messaging systems.

You have companies that shout
about diversity and inclusion.

We want to do more.

We’re going to create a strategy.

However, silence can often be deafening
when people can see

if they’re not interacting,
if the senior leaders

are not interacting
with those individuals,

if they’re not putting them on a platform,
celebrating them,

making them more visible, allowing
them to be heard, and so on.

It doesn’t go unnoticed
among those individuals,

and they’re usually the first to leave.


Absolutely. Perhaps we can get
a little bit more detail on two things.

The two of you
work in International idealo.

I point this out to the audience
also because we all know,

but to be clear,
it’s the same environment.

Dinah, you mentioned tools.

You were already mentioning them,
but can you elaborate on,

say, one or two examples?

For example,
we have somebody in the audience,

because when I talk to people
about diversity,

sometimes I can see
that they don’t want the discussions.

They don’t like the challenge.

They see that they have
this one other person,

and all of a sudden everything
becomes complicated.

What tools will you have at hand
to facilitate discussions,

a meeting, and a diverse team,
if that makes sense?

Right. I can give very practical tips.

For example, if I facilitate a workshop,
and as I said before, I always have to try

to create a safe space
for the participants,

let’s say a leadership team.

As a facilitator, when I write the concept
for the workshop, I have different options

for methods that I bring in.

First of all, we work with this famous
online whiteboard tool,

the collaboration tool mirror.

Then, when we all come to the board
and open the session,

as a facilitator,
when I prepare, I can, for example,

start with check-ins and check-outs.

How do I do them?

For example, do I ask a question
where everybody would have to elaborate

for a minute
before you can pass on the mic,

or do I do it in writing?

For example, if people feel uncomfortable,
they should immediately start

speaking up or sharing points.

Secondly, when it comes to group work,
what I could do

is offer methods where groups will mix.

For example, I can prevent
the leadership team

or the team that I work with
from going into their peer groups already.

They would always do it,
but instead, I can use methods

to mix it up.

This is what the leadership in my company
also does

and is asking me to support them with:
these tricks and methods

to spice up my workshop,
to create safe spaces

and mix it up.

It’s quite interesting
that you mention that,

because I think with a lot
of organizations

where they are international,
when we talk about a glass ceiling,

there are so many.

You’ve got a gender glass ceiling,
a racial glass ceiling,

or a social glass ceiling.

Sometimes in those environments,
especially when organizations

haven’t done the work
yet about cultural awareness,

when you’re in those situations
and you have communities of people

that don’t speak, their silence
should never be taken as acceptance.

It could be a cultural mark of respect.

I think that’s also
another important thing

for organizations to understand.

Yes. There’s also the difference
between saying we accept everyone

or saying we take a clear stand,
being in solidarity with certain groups,

or whatever, actively
includes certain groups and naming them.

This is something that I also believe.

In Germany, not everybody is aware
that we now talk

about women and men and gender,
but we are very cautious when it comes,

for instance, to ethnicity or whatever,
like quotas

of black and brown people or whatever.

You would look at it in the US
like it was something very uncommon.

You wouldn’t yet normally
do this in Germany, for instance.

We also talked about safe spaces.

Nathali, Fabio, if I may say so,
and myself are part

of the LGBTQ+ community.

This is all about creating safe spaces.

How can we have a workplace in which
we can say this openly?

I mean, us being in the panel
and saying, “”Yes, that’s just facts.””

That has not been something
common or usual back in the days.

So, maybe, Nathali, what will you say?

Let’s say we have people watching,
and they’re leaders,

and somebody on the team
is part of the LGBTQ+ community.

Then they say, “”What do I do with them?””

What would you say?

I would say, “”Listen to them
in the first place.””

I don’t think you need to talk
with LGBTQ+ people

differently than others.

Be open to everybody
and allow them to raise their voices

and talk about their private lives
if it’s appropriate

in a one-on-one setting.

As I said before,
having a safe environment,

which I always felt like at idealo,
was also something for me to step out

and be openly gay, for example,
because it’s part of me,

and I don’t want to hide it.

When I decided to apply for the position,
I knew it would put more light on me

to shed the light on me.

It was something I thought
about getting if I wanted it.

Yes, I did feel safe here.

That’s why I did that.

I would say, “”Listen to the people.””

Maybe turning it around:
“”What would make you feel safe?””

Can you pin it down in any way?

I think that’s what we discussed before:
to not only think

that diversity is something
that is cool or in, but to live it.

I feel like idealo is living it
in the part where I have experience.

That’s what I experience all the time
when I talk to people,

the very openness of everyone.

That makes sense.

Would you like to add anything?

I was thinking about my experience
when I started at idealo.

I have to be honest.

In the beginning, I did not mention
my sexual orientation

because you never know.

You don’t know what your boss is thinking
or what the company is thinking.

It took me some time to come out
and start to speak

about opening up about that.

In the beginning, I also played a little,
just to be sure.

Now, for example, if I look at idealo,
when you come to our office,

the first thing that you see
is the sticker

that says something about the LGBTQ+ zone.

It’s something very easy.

If I had this sticker six years ago,
it would have been

completely different for me.

What I have had to say, for example,
to Gazelle or ask

for our employer’s branding of idealo
is, “”Show me

that I can be this sticker now
and exactly do a panel like this.””

So taking part in that
is also an invitation

to say, “”Okay, feel comfortable.””

“”Look at me.””

“”I’m here, and I manage a big part
of the department of idealo.””

It’s also possible.

The sense of belonging so nice.

Then you become a role model for yourself.

That shows other people
who are part of the community

that we can be
the chief international officer here.

They will say, “”There is
no glass ceiling for us.””

“”Let’s go.””

We can put this off the map.

Tick this box.

Sorry. Speak slower, Gazelle.

We have some questions from the audience.

We might want to take a dose.

No, we will do a poll first.

Let’s do a poll first,
and then we can answer them.

I want to know from the audience now.

Do you feel that you can be
your true self at work?

I’d be curious about that.

We’ll give you a moment.

We’ll be answering your question
from you first,

and then look at the results.

I have something here.

Keeran, that might be for you
because you are an employer brand expert

and a recruiting expert.

I believe there’s a person
from a recruiting department

who asks, “”What would be your key advice
for recruiters

to help candidates
break the glass ceiling?””

It’s even with candidates,
but also I find it

with my hiring managers as well.

People often forget who they are,
how they got to where they are,

and their skills.

That’s good.

Sometimes people need that boost
of confidence

as a reminder of what they’ve achieved,
which is why that conversation

is happening between a candidate
and a recruiter.

I’m from the UK.

I love a compliment.

I think that’s also very important.

From an employer brand point of view,
we generate content,

and I speak to leaders.

I remind them of why it’s so important
to share their story

because a lot of people
spend a lot of time

looking at their profiles and thinking,
“”How did they get to that point

in their career?””

Then when you’re speaking
to that candidate,

remind them as well
why that conversation is taking place.

That sounds encouraging then.

Absolutely. The poll result is perfect.

Sixty percent of people
say that they feel safe at the workplace.

Some are not always,
but I find that a lot of people

are in the 40 percent range.

That’s not much.

Another question from the audience

is, “”Why is it sometimes difficult
for leaders to talk about these matters?””

It could also be that
maybe they do not feel themselves

or do not feel
they can be their true selves

or work because nobody is addressing it
proactively, perhaps,

or is not being
a role model in any direction.

How can we work on that?

Why do you think it’s sometimes difficult
for leaders to talk about it?

It depends on who you are.

I’m brown, an African,
and the child of immigrants.

I was conditioned growing up
to keep my head down

and not cause any drama.

You have to retain your job
because there’s always the fear

that you could potentially lose it.

I can understand completely
why some people have that fear

of being able to be truly,
authentically themselves.

When we talk about the glass ceiling
and talk about,

for example, women,
there is another layer to that.

That’s the marginalization and how tough
it is for women of color to progress.

There is a term
called the “”concrete ceiling.””

It was a term
coined by Jasmine Barber in 2016.

When you look at the glass ceiling,
you can see what’s in it.

For a lot of women of color,
you can’t see past the concrete ceiling.

I think that’s an important factor.

The feeling that diverse people ask for
is, for example, “”I can speak for myself.””

It’s always like a fight against a “”but””.

He is Italian, but he is professional.

She has children,
but she is a good worker.

This is always bad.

I think that all of us
have experienced that.

You have to work two times
as much for each,

the same at the normal person
or the colleague beside you.

This is something that also happens
when you arrive at a company

like, for example, idealo.

This is very opening.

It’s something that you have in yourself
because you are so experienced.

This is also difficult
for the person to speak about

and for the leader,
who maybe didn’t have this experience,

to understand what it means,
because it’s much deeper

than just saying you are Italian.

It’s something else,
or you are homosexual.

It’s a long process.

That is not always that the person
is in step already done all this process.

It’s good that
you’re mentioning Italy now.

Do you happen to know if the conversation
about diversity

is different in Italy, for instance?

People in the chat are asking.

There is no conversation.

There’s no conversation at all.

No. A woman and a man are also topics,

but it’s also Finnish on that level.

It also depends on which part of Italy
you are in and which sector you are in.

There are much more openings
if you think about fashion and Italy.

It’s there.

You don’t have this type of problem
with diversity and inclusion.

Overall, I would say that Italy
has a more classic way

of doing business than,
for example, Germany

or English business online.

It’s a different discussion.

I also think that in different companies,
even when it’s not in the tech market,

there are lots of different ways
of dealing with diversity.

Whenever I say how it is here
and how I experience it here,

I get the feedback
that it’s not at all like that

in different other countries or companies.

Do you think it’s any industry,
or does it not matter?

I think it doesn’t matter.

We have a bubble here, so it’s always good
to think of others as well.

I remember, Dinah, I don’t know
if you’ll remember this now,

where we had a conversation.

You had some changes in your career.

It’s not like they didn’t make sense
or anything. It’s just like

when you look at it on LinkedIn,
you’ll say, “”Okay, who’s this?””

“”Who’s that?””

Then I was wondering,
“”Who did you look up to?””

Part of it was also literally looking up
your role models somewhere.

I don’t know
if you want to maybe tell us about that.

Who are your role models, perhaps?

Who did you look up to?

Right. I’m not sure what I told you,
but I always looked up

to women in unseatable positions
because this is where I feel

that there are women who get promoted.

It’s happening.

It’s possible because I didn’t always
experience that in my career.

For example,
in earlier companies where I worked,

I told you
that I didn’t get a seat at the table,

even though my work was appreciated,
or, as Fabio said,

that you have to work twice as hard.

You get the same appreciation for it,
et cetera. What I always looked at for

were women in leadership positions.

It’s definitely, for sure.

It’s just on social media,
for example, LinkedIn.

At the same time, as we said before,
it’s not only about gender.

It goes beyond gender,
the term “”glass ceiling.””

The problem is still
that we sometimes lack education.

We, in our environment,
could say we are in this great bubble

where we have a lot of education.

We do panels like this.

We do talks about this.

We exchange ideas.

We learn from each other, et cetera.

“”Diversity”” is a broad term.

For example,

if the Agile Coaches International
were all Armenian-Iranian,

say five of them,
this wouldn’t be a diverse team.

That’s not it.

It’s about creating spaces
for different perspectives.

Bringing different perspectives
to the table

and also creating safe spaces
to let them speak up in their own way.

That’s not already it.

There’s a lot going on with diversity
and role models.

It helps you if you search for someone
that you see,

and you say,
“”Okay, I can see myself going up there,

going this way, or following this path.””

For a long time,
we didn’t see many black women

on social media
as much as we compare to today,

or CEOs who would openly

say, “”I’m gay.””

“”I’m part of this community.””

Speaking about sexual orientation
was never part of it,

looking up in the industry
that you work in

or comparing companies
and saying, “”Who do you see?””

“”Who do you find?””

“”Do you see anyone
who could be a role model for yourself?””

I think that’s a great power already.

Absolutely. We have another question
that is

also evolving around how to get started.

For example,
let’s say there is nothing there.

What could be the first step
to implementing a safe space?

Nathali, for instance,
maybe it’s a different nuance,

and then everybody feels invited to think
while Nathali replies

and maybe find your answer to this
because that would be interesting.

A different aspect of your work
is that you have different scenarios.

For instance, the people that you lead.

I know that.

How have you gone about it?

Do you have a trick or any advice?

I think it’s the same,
going back to what I said before.

You need to find out
whether people are standing right now

and what they need for the next steps.

It comes back to listening
and understanding

where the next step for the person is.

It’s listening but also analyzing,
for example,

what they bring and understanding
their strengths and challenges.

Exactly. Then also what they are doing.

It also depends on what team they are on
and what the challenges are.

Very much also a coaching aspect, right?

Yes. Sometimes it’s coaching.

Yes, absolutely.

Any other ideas for baby steps
into creating safe spaces?

I would probably say anonymous surveys
in terms of a social listening exercise

and giving people the confidence
that they are anonymous.

It’s super important
because we’re giving people

that space to be heard.

The other element is to look
at the reviews

that are left for your company,
especially on so many sites,

such as Glassdoor and Indeed,
and see how the data that is fed

into Bloomberg affects the share price.

The company has a lot of weight.

It defines whether people
want to do business with you.

That’s also a great place to get an idea
of how people felt

when they left your organization.

You can look at your current
and former employees.

I would say it’s a big part
that the CEOs of the company

or the founders,
whoever is behind that topic, want it.

They have to want diverse leadership teams
or diversity in their company.

At the same time,
when it comes to all of us

being part of it, for example, I, myself,
just came from a recruiting process

where I was recruiting my tandem.

I taught myself over and over again,
and I spoke to Fabio, “”Stop hiring people

who are just like us.””

That’s also what I told you when we met.

It wasn’t easy because whenever I see
someone who is like me, I click so easily.

I connect. It’s the same background.

We talk about Armenian and Iranian stuff.

What’s going on in Iran?

I don’t know.

If it’s a female
and is at”